Sunday, April 13, 2008

Explaining the Miniscule Differences Between the LDS Mormon Theology and the FLDS Mormon Theology Pertaining to Polygamy and Priesthood Authority

From the Dallas Morning News

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has more than a century of history and a system of beliefs and practices that have long set it apart. Here's a look at its roots and beliefs:

Is the FLDS Mormon?

Members say they represent the only true Mormon church – a claim otherwise rejected by people who consider themselves Mormon. As Mormon historian Martha Sontag Bradley of the University of Utah puts it: "The FLDS is as foreign to contemporary Mormons as they are to outsiders."

[ I don't personally believe this to be true. While the FLDS members maintain that they are the only true form of Mormonism because they did not relinquish polygamy, I do not accept the premise that the more well known Mormon Church based in Salt Lake City claims that they have no connection to the FLDS church. They will be forever tied to the FLDS polygamists because the original "prophet" of both organizations is the one who began the practice in the first place. If rejecting polygamy had not been a condition of statehood for Utah, we wouldn't even have to discuss the differences between LDS and FLDS faith and practice. They both tout the Book of Mormon as scripture, they both use the Doctrine and Covenants as a basis for their revealed doctrine, they keep all of the same observances for Joseph's birth, life, ministry, and death. The main distinction between them is that the FLDS still believes that separating from the mainstream is the only way to keep themselves elect and pure, and the Salt Lake City Mormons are trying very hard to appear mainstream and to integrate themselves among the many different Christian sects throughout the U.S. ]

What is the connection between the FLDS and the mainstream Mormon church – the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Both churches trace their origins to Joseph Smith. They believe that in 1823, an angel visited Mr. Smith, son of a farmer in upstate New York, and told him to reboot authentic Christianity, which was lost shortly after the deaths of the original apostles.

Among the teachings: Israelites came to what is now America more than 2,600 years ago, and their descendents were visited by Jesus after his resurrection. Both churches also believe that God was once a mortal man. The LDS church has more sacred texts than the Bible, including the Book of Mormon.

And the president of the church is considered a prophet, no less than Elijah, through whom God can deliver new revelations.

Where did the FLDS come from?

The FLDS, formally incorporated in 1991, is one of the largest splinter groups that rejected new Mormon revelations.

One of the early tenets of the LDS church was polygamy, patterned on the Biblical patriarchs. In 1890, as Utah was trying to become a state, the Mormon president announced that polygamy was no longer acceptable. But the FLDS believes that a former head of the LDS church instructed a group of Mormons to continue plural marriages.

A second major revelation occurred in 1978. Until that time, black men were not allowed full membership – "priesthood" – in the LDS church. The FLDS also rejects that change.

Are there differences in how the churches are organized?

The LDS president is closely advised, as a matter of church doctrine, by a group of more than a dozen other men. The organization that became the FLDS started with a group of advisers. But the father of Warren Jeffs, the current prophet, declared in the 1980s that the leadership should be held by one man.

Does the FLDS president hold powers that the LDS president does not?

One important power is the "placement marriage," according to historian Marriane T. Watson. Mr. Jeffs has the right and responsibility to assign girls or women to their husbands.

[The LDS church based in Salt Lake City had leadership that did the same thing while polygamy was practiced. It was normal for young girls to be assigned to the elders of the church, as young as 14, just to reserve them for when they reached maturity, and to prevent them from being available to single men within the church, who may not have earned their right to practice polygamy, or may not have sufficiently demonstrated their loyalty to the church. There may not have been sex involved, but there wouldn't have to be, so long as the young girl's affections were for her spiritual husband only, and any young potential suitor was cut off from approach.]

Are there other differences between the FLDS and LDS?

The LDS church once taught that its members should be self-sufficient and greatly restrict contact with nonmembers. The FLDS still holds those teachings, as shown by the substantial Eldorado compound. The compound may also represent a location for a "gathering of the saints" to precede the return of Jesus. LDS teaching no longer emphasizes the need for a literal, physical gathering place.

[Although Adam-Ondi-Ahman is still spoken of as a gathering place when the time is right to fulfill the prophecies for the building of the "New Jerusalem". This is still a widely held doctrine and belief within the Salt Lake LDS Mormon church.]

The following paragraphs are from RfM, because they only keep archives for 10 days. My comments will be in []

Marriage Mormon Style and the Role of Women.

Author: Susie Q #1

The Mormon Doctrine of The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage, Plurality of Wives continues to define a women's role.

Is any of this information in the Temple Preparation Class?
Does anyone fully understand what is going to happen?

Don't we deserve Full Disclosure for Informed Consent and Informed Choice? Are the covenants binding if you have not been given full disclosure? I maintain that they are not.

This post comprises parts of the endowment and the actual marriage ceremony and the D&C 132 references that support the doctrine of eternal marriage or the New and Everlasting Covenant which is Plurality of Wives.

The only part that meets the requirement of the law, that I can find is:

authority vested in me, I pronounce you ______, and ______, legally and lawfully husband and wife.

Without that wording, the ceremony would not be legally binding in the US.

Married in the temple, to each other, are you sure? Where's the love?

After passing two interviews to get the temple recommend—
(see Temple Recommend Questions here ) either on the day of the marriage, or earlier, and going through the Endowment Ceremony: Washing and Anointing ceremony where the Holy Garment of the Priesthood (notice ladies, you wear the same garment of the Holy Priesthood!), is placed on you and covenanting to obey:

The Law of Obedience
The Law of Sacrifice
The Law of the Gospel
The Law of Chastity
The Law of Consecration --which is:

(I am only including this particular one on this post as it has it directly applies to the marriage covenant.)

A couple will now come to the altar. We are instructed to give unto you the Law of Consecration as contained in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, in connection with the Law of the Gospel and the Law of Sacrifice which you have already received.

It is that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

All arise. Each of you bring your right arm to the square.

You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

Each of you bow your head and say "yes."

Then and only then may you be sealed in the marriage ceremony.

Sometimes, the officiator will allow an exchange of rings at the end of the ceremony, and a kiss.
(I don't know the current policy on this practice. Maybe someone else does.)

Here is the ceremony:

Officiator: Brother ______, [naming groom] and Sister ______, [naming bride] please join hands in the Patriarchal Grip or Sure Sign of the Nail.

Marriage Couple:
Joins hands in the "Patriarchal Grip, or Sure Sign of the Nail."This token is given by clasping the right hands, interlocking the little fingers and placing the tip of the forefinger upon the center of the wrist. No clothing should interfere with the contact of the forefinger upon the wrist.

Officiator: Brother ______, do you take Sister ______ by the right hand and receive her unto yourself to be your lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

Groom: Yes.

Officiator: Sister ______ do you take brother ______ by the right hand and give yourself to him to be his lawful and wedded wife, and for him to be your lawful and wedded husband, for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

Bride: Yes.

By virtue of the Holy Priesthood and the authority vested in me, I pronounce you ______, and ______, legally and lawfully husband and wife for time and all eternity, and I seal upon you the blessings of the holy resurrection with power to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection clothed in glory, immortality and eternal lives, and I seal upon you the blessings of kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions and exaltations, with all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and say unto you: be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth that you may have joy and rejoicing in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

All these blessings, together with all the blessings appertaining unto the New and Everlasting Covenant, I seal upon you by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, through your faithfulness, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

To make sure one understands exactly what the "New and Everlasting Covenant" is, see: D&C 132

REFERENCE for easy reading:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. History of the Church 5: 501—507.

Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

[INSERT: compare introduction to the 1969 edition of the Book of Mormon.]

Here's the 1969 version:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives.

-------The Prophet’s inquiry of the Lord--He is told to prepare himself to receive the new and everlasting covenant--Conditions of this law--The power of the Holy Priesthood instituted by the Lord must be operative in ordinances to be in effect beyond the grave--
Marriage by secular authority is of effect during mortality only--Though the form of marriage should make it appear to be for time and eternity, the ordinance is not valid beyond the grave unless solemnized by the authority of the Holy Priesthood as the Lord directs--
Marriage duly authorized for time and eternity to be attended by surpassing blessings--E
ssentials for the attainment of the status of godhood -- The meaning of eternal lives--Plurality of wives acceptable only when commanded by the Lord--The sin of adultery--Commandment to Emma Smith, wife of the prophet.

1981 edition:
1—6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant;
7—14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth;
15—20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods;
21—25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives;
26—27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost;
28—39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages;
40—47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven;
48—50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation;
51—57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true;
58—66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

Did you catch it? Celestial Marriage is Plurality of Wives! The Mormon Church has never, ever stopped practicing their law that applies to polygamy or plurality of wives as that is what Celestial Marriage (The New and Everlasting Covenant) is! It is clearly an eternal principle for the Celestial Kingdom.

Did you notice that the marriage sealing ceremony not only continues the practice of plurality of wives and, because of the covenant of the Law of Consecration, married you to the church and it's commandments by covenant, not each other?

Investigators BEWARE:
Demand full disclosure for informed consent. You won't get it from the Mormon Church, so do your own research.
Know what you are doing, and what it really means!


The Role of Women in the Mormon Church - Motherhood, Her Sexuality and how the Temple Ceremonies of Washing and Anointing Define Her.


Women accept their role in Mormonism with a promise that borrows into her heart and is the essence of motherhood - the absolutely belief that they will never loose their children and their family if they comply with the doctrines taught them.

The believe they will have their children for all eternity of they adhere to the Mormon teachings. In fact, to have a child leave the Mormon Church is a personal failure that is to be avoided at all costs, as this is a personal assault on her by the adversary, and she must do everything in her power to keep from loosing her offspring.

She willingly submits to these beliefs even though, to an outsider, they seem to infringe on her independence, her honor and her good sense. Some outsiders, even call it abusive.

Women who are well entrenched and strong believers in Mormonism, often with several generations of Mormonism flowing in their veins, see the accusations of abuse, and lack of independence and freedom of thought from outsiders as silly and false. She absolutely knows she is not abused, not programmed, not brainwashed, and can "think for herself."

What she does not realize is that she is restricted by the doctrines and what she considers "thinking for herself" means she thinks long and hard and prays long and hard to obtain a "witness of the spirit" so she is "worthy" to obtain eternal life. A mother is often willing to go to any length to save, protect, and keep her family.

The teachings of the Mormon Church make it clear that the Holy Priesthood of God is never to be questioned. To question a male Priesthood holder, especially the top leadership is tantamount to questioning God. Even to have doubts is unacceptable. Doubts are never to be spoken or written. They are to be kept inside. (That is one of the reasons, in my observation that anger brews and explodes when people finally get out from under the thumb of Mormonism's control.)

I have heard Mormon women admit that they did not like or understand their position in the Mormon Church but it was how "Heavenly Father wanted it" and they go along with it thinking it is the only right thing to do. So, they defer to the priesthood, (some more so than others) thinking they are laying up treasures in heaven. The woman's place is foremost and always to follow and support the priesthood in all things.

Their role is clearly defined in Mormonism's in it's doctrine and is one area that has not changed and will never changed.

Their role is defined in Doctrine and Covenants 132, as part of the official doctrine and even though polygamy or plurality of wives is not lived outright (technically it is still lived according to the marriage ceremony --exact wording from D&C 132 in the temple.)

She wears the same garment day and night of the Holy Priesthood of God, and covenanted to be a priestess to her husband in the Celestial Kingdom, but that is as far as her authority or equality goes. It teaches them that Heavenly Father meant for them to be the mothers, and for the men to officiate in the Priesthood.

The temple rituals and covenants (called Endowments) do not make her equal to her husband. She is to be a priestess to her husband who will rule over her in righteousness! The message is clear. She is taught from a young age, beginning with a blessing when she is just a few weeks old to give her a name, that she is to go to the temple and be married for "all eternity."

There is a lot of lip service given to the notion that they are equal, but every woman knows that only applies in certain areas. They might share equal chores in the home, or have equal input on decisions in the home, but when it comes to the church hierarchy and how the Priesthood functions, they might be listened to, but their recommendations can be and are overruled on the whim of the leaders as they are the representatives of the Lord. What the priesthood leaders say is accepted as they claim inspiration given to them as the Lord's mouthpiece.

She may be the "neck" that moves the "head" in many areas, but not when it comes to officiating in the Priesthood. Her role is to support and remind and see that he fulfills his Priesthood functions but not to question or direct it. After all, her eternal place with her children and family is dependent on him honoring the Priesthood.


Men overrule women.
Women have no authority in the church and no place in the hierarchy and only serve under the men. If the men in charge do not like something, the women are told to do things differently. If they do not agree, they are considered: "prideful" think they "own" a calling, and not obedient to the Priesthood. All of which is unacceptable.

Her agency, the doctrine of freedom to choose between good and evil, (free agency is n a misnomer and not part of the teachings) is held in a very small box of do's and do not's, all determined by how the men interpret the scriptures how they supervise the organizations, and how they make assignments-- "callings" and give "counsel."

There is a "vote" in their Sacrament Meetings, but it means one is promising to support the member in their calling. Dissent is not accepted either. The vote is only intended to obtain the support of the members by raising their hand to the square.

The men's "inspiration" overrules anything a woman says or claims as an answer to her prayers.

All assignments or "callings" as they are called have a right to "inspiration" and one is expected to "magnify their calling." However, it is important to note that "inspiration" is only given for their respective "callings." No one is entitled to any "inspiration" or direction from the Lord about anything other than the "calling" they currently hold.

There is also no need for the Priesthood brethren to tell the truth as they have the privilege of "Lying for the Lord" a well understood underlying concept in Mormonism taught in their scriptures.

All of Mormonism is governed by men with very little input from the women, who are predominately used to follow orders - with a dust pan and broom to clean up after the brethren - in more ways than one!

The typical Mormon Priesthood leader looses respect for a female who uses her own mind, challenges them, or corrects them. They are threatened by the misuse of her position as it means he is not doing his job as a Priesthood leader and he is then expected to call her to repentance and make sure she changes her ways and never does it again.

Women are accepted in the Mormon Church and loved and respected and admired only if they comply with the role they are given. Once they are seen as disobedient, rebellious, take a different interpretation than the official one, explain themselves, they are no longer considered "worthy," and can loose everything, including their children, especially in divorce.

If the husband is "worthy" which generally means that he lives all the commandments, in particular: the Word of Wisdom, and pays tithing and can answer the temple recommend questions in the affirmative,(or correctly as they are asked) in the eyes of the Mormon Church it is acceptable for him to leave his "unworthy" wife and take her children away. The worthy Priesthood holder is entitled to a worthy wife.

Once the woman is accused of not being "chaste" she is no longer "worthy." Never mind that the man might be having an affair, or has abused his own children, or is a pedophile. It is the woman's fault these things happened. It is not uncommon for a Relief Society President for instance, to tell a woman to "be a better wife" so her husband won't beat her or stray.

Women in Mormonism are also defined by their sexuality.

The underlying message about sexuality is that you will give your life to keep from being raped. The worthy, honorable thing to do, if sexually assaulted, is to fight to the death to preserve your vagina from dishonorable intrusion. Often, an honorable Mormon father teaches his daughters that he would rather see her dead than violated. It is worth noting, however, that this not a concept solely held by Mormonism.

Mormonism has found the key to controlling generations of it's members. It is a typical ploy of religiosity since time began; control the sexuality of the female and control of the family for generations to come is maintained. This also solidifies the influx of money.

Women are also taught that they control "the spirit" of the home. It goes along with the old adage if "mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" and Mormonism takes this a step further imprinting and programming young females from birth that they are to be sweet and worthy to have "the spirit" with them at all times. Of course, this is solidified at age eight with baptism, when they are commanded to receive the Holy Ghost as their constant companion and continues with the rest of the "ordinances."

Women in Mormonism are also defined by their attire.

Their whole wardrobe and their sense of their bodies is determined by the temple garment that is to be worn next to the skin as a protection and placed on her body in a ritual in the temple. It is also seen as a protection against her sexuality being defiled or assaulted in any way. She is told she is to remain chaste and worthy in thought and deed with the temple garment a constant, even Mosaic reminder that she is a daughter of Heavenly Father and this is what is expected of her. Again her sexuality is given a place before her life.

The temple garment, with it's Masonic markings is seen as holy and sacred and is never to be put on the floor or abused in any manner. In fact, discarding of used, and worn garments requires a further ritual as the markings are to be cut out and burned. Then, and only then, can the remaining material (now devoid of their sacred element) be used as rags to clean the floor, or wash the car.

Once dressed in the Holy Garment of the Priesthood, (worn day and and night)- an interesting title, as she has no rank in the priesthood or any right to officiate, only as a servant - she then must make her attire comply with it's restrictions.

That means, every part of her body that is covered by the garment must be covered - modestly. Because the garment comes to the lower thigh or knee, and has a cap sleeve, and is designed to fall several inches above her natural bra line, she is now confined to buying (or in many cases - making) clothing that covers her underwear. She has now become subservient to Heavenly Father - her God, who controls her (and men also) by her underwear, day and night.

There is the underlying message that women (and men) behave according to the clothing they are wearing, so the subtle indoctrinated, imprinted script says that the woman in Mormonism is wearing a holy-sacred reminder to dress modestly, and act accordingly and worthy of the blessings promised her.

Temple ceremonies -- define the woman's role

The following is how the Washing and Anointing Ceremony was carried out during the times I attended the temple from 1962 to 1990 when it was changed. I have written extensively about these rituals prior to the change, (as have many others) and am happy to know that our fellow human beings will no longer be subjected to this ritual.

Now the tunic is sewed up at the sides, and the naked body is no longer touched and anointed with water and oil. Hopefully, we all had a hand in seeing this ritual discontinued in our efforts to "give back" to humanity, especially our Mormon friends and loved ones.

These are some of my memories of the Washing and Anointing Ceremony in the Temple - beginning in 1962.

(All of these rituals are easily accessed on the Internet, also) I have attended nine temples from 1962 to 1995, eight of them in the US and one in Switzerland, doing hundreds of "sessions" as they are called.

You enter a small stall, and sit on a cold marble type slab. The female temple worker doing the washing and anointing stands behind and to the side of you and starts with the top of the head, the forehead, the eyes, nose, mouth, breast, bowels, legs..etc. She has a little spigot she gets water from that drips slowly.

The oil is done in the same fashion. There are promises given, with each part of the body that is washed-dabbed with water and anointed-dabbed with oil. These have to do with promising the female that she will be a priestess to her husband in the Celestial Kingdom if she is faithful to her covenants. Nothing untoward, or of a sexual nature is done, but it is just very, very ethically and culturally out of order. How anyone can equate that to something spiritual still amazes me.

I can still see the rows of tiny, narrow lockers where we completely undressed and donned the sheet-tunic, carrying our long garments into the little cubical where the old lady awaited me. One of the oddest things about the temple is that the lockers have keys, so in the whispered ambiance of the temple, one of the only sounds heard is the soft jingling of the keys attacked with a safety pin to your clothing..

Now back to the tunic used at that time. It is a true tunic - open at the sides and no seams. To walk in and out of the washing and anointing room, most people hold the sheets together.

I can still see, hear and feel and smell those old women assisting us. They reminded me of a grandma dressed in a white uniform, often with false teeth clacking, chewing a breath mint. I could feel her breath and smell the aroma of the mints as she whispered in my ear reaching under the sheet with those warm, sweaty, damp hands sliding over here and over there, anointing me first with dabs of water from head to toe, then going the same thing with oil.

I can still hear the water trickling from the tiny spigot that she put her hands into to begin the ritual of anointing. I can still hear the sing-song monotone of her memorized washing and anointing dialog.

This ritual is not just a tiny tap on an imaginary dot of the skin. Your body is stroked in a 2" to 3" area in a downward motion over specific areas of your body from your head on down to your legs and onto to your toes. You do not know exactly where they will touch you. You only know the general area. It is very uncomfortable as these women are usually seniors-retirement age of 65 to 75 and their head is outside the sheet. They cannot see where they hands are unless they look under the tunic where the sides are open. They open the sheet on the sides to begin.

Imagine a woman's hand under the sheet (for women-man for men) each time they say a body part, making a sliding motion of about 2" to 3" in some areas, with the four fingers of the right hand over the body part -probably trying to be very careful they do not touch the actual breast-nipple area for women, or the pelvic hair-penis-scrotum area for men when they get to the words that correspond with that part of the body.

Sometimes, I had to stifle a giggle as the old woman inadvertently tickled me and I squirmed. I tried to sit really, really still so she would not slide her wet, warm, oily hand anywhere it ought not to be as her face was averted outside the sheet and she could not see where she had her hands.

Sometimes she slid her hands within inches of my breasts and pubic hair as she slid her hands around in her predetermined and well practiced path. I always hated it and I would shudder when she slide those warm, oily hands down my legs onto my feet. Repeating in sing-song monotone, the blessings associated with the rituals.

When she finished she would help me step into my underwear, while still wearing that sheet tunic, adjusting it properly and sending me out into the dressing area where dozens of other women were coming and going. I was often hugged had the feeling she wanted to kiss me, she was so pleased. I still shudder.

The washings and anointing were only required the first time you go to the temple as these ordinances are done in blocks by people who do only those kinds of sessions as proxy for the dead. They are the first part of the Endowment.

After the washing and anointing ceremony, the initiate dresses in all white clothing from neck to wrist to ankle and follows the group of people all dressed the same, into the Endowment session which follows and includes a video and promises-covenants made which, until April 1990, included hand movements signifying ways in which your life could be taken - cutting throat and disembowelment if you divulged certain parts of the Endowment.

Those, fortunately were removed, along with the Five Points of Fellowship at the Veil which required the initiate to stand embraced with a man (unseen and representing the Lord) behind a curtain-sheet - ear to ear, hand to back knee to knee, etc. to review the covenants made earlier in the ceremony - then the curtain would open and you were led in by your hand to the Celestial Room of the Temple.

If you go through the Temple as proxy for any dead relative (what I often refer to as postmortem conversions) you must do the washing and anointing along with it. Years ago, we did the washing and anointing and the endowment session for the same name all in one evening, sometimes doing two sessions for two deceased people.

The part that is unethical and disrespectful, in my experience is that no one tells the new initiate anything ahead of time. You go along and do what dozens of other people are doing. It is very difficult to leave once you get in the temple. It can be done, I know, I have watched people do it, but it is rare. This is group pressure at it's most intense.

Under no other circumstances would anyone even dare to consider that you would strip naked, put on a shield-tunic, as it is called, and carry your underwear and go into a small room alone with someone you do not know while they whisper memorized, ritual dialog, usually with a breath mint in their mouth, then help dress you by helping you put on the regulation temple garment to be worn day and night.

To even suggest this bazaar, outlandish, absurd act is spiritual reeks of a complete lack of common sense and respect.

It is humiliating. I have never been so mortified in my life. It is a flagrant assault on one's self respect and dignity.

The Mormon church has no policy for full disclosure or they would disclose every single thing about their history, including their finances and their temple ceremonies to anyone who investigates or/or joins.

I maintain if these practices were made public, disclosed ahead of time, very few people would be interested in going to any of their temples. I am sure some would, it's tradition and they won't break with tradition.

Originally, I am told, this was a complete washing and anointing, similar to some other religious customs. There is no redeeming value to it. There is nothing spiritual about putting on a tunic, open at the sides, made from a sheet and carrying your regulation underwear into a little room to have your naked body touched by someone you do not know.

This is an obvious invasion of your complete being and done in a setting with a lot of other people so you go along because the rest are doing it, at least the first time.

You are assured by the members and leaders to believe that there is nothing that can harm you so when you feel violated and invaded, you are stuck with the mental gymnastics of trying to make sense of it.

Somehow, you must make a bizarre experience seem spiritual and good. If you don't the implication is that you do not have the right spirit. Surely it is not the church that is doing bad things, it must be me. So it goes on, around and around in circles. Always making you the one that is at fault, never the church.

The arrogance of Mormonism to assume that they had any right to touch anyone's naked body without full disclosure and full permission is out of the realm of common decency. This is the most despicable, horrid, spiritual abuse of another human being imaginable, but it must be done if they are to get your total submission.

This is the final frontier of breaking down boundaries - your naked body! This is about total submission, control, stripping you down and dressing the surprised, new initiate with physical touching under a flimsy tunic then dressing you!

Once that is accomplished, there is nothing you won't do and it does include giving your life if you divulge certain parts of the temple ceremonies. For this privilege you pay 10% + of your income for your life.

Generally, the women that object most vehemently to a husband changing his beliefs, have gone through this ceremony many times, some of them, hundreds of times. This is, in my observation, the crux of the power that motivates a Mormon female to be completely unable to deal with an apostate husband.)

The genius of the temple, especially the washing and anointing and the endowment is to keep the person totally committed, paying tithing and under their control. And it works.

How does the Mormon church get old Mormon men and women to believe it is a sacred ordinance to touch the naked body of strangers under a sheet with little dabs of water then oil while you sit in a small cubicle?

The only way you get people to do this is through extreme religious teachings: programming, conditioning, and trust and no prior specific information. It must be done while a large group of other people are doing the same thing so it is seen as acceptable in the eyes of the Mormon God.

(Note: even though the "naked touching" part is removed, the power of the initiation is still there.)

The unbelievable part is that the church does such a good job of convincing and programming the new converts and new initiate to the notion that this is spiritual, a higher law, you are special, God wants you to do this - that the members go along with it.

They get thousands of members to go to the temple thousands of times over their lifetime to continue this programming and, yes, what some call-brainwashing. They use a tried and true method. They call it "Building Relationships of Trust" or BRT. Get someone to trust you and they will believe anything you say and do anything you ask of them, especially if they are convinced it will guarantee them a place of honor in the Mormon Celestial Kingdom after they die. What we will do in the name of pleasing the Mormon God!

The interesting thing is that once you stop going to church, stop attending any function, stop reading any of their approved literature, you begin to separate and disconnect and break the code. Some call it blatant cult or cultish activities, although very subtle and well designed to subjugate you to them forever.

If a woman wants her place solidified in the after life with her children and family. she must, at all costs, have a husband that is "worthy" and honors the Holy Priesthood, and will, in the resurrection, call her by her "New Name" given her in the temple at her marriage, into the Celestial Kingdom.

Therein lies the power of years of imprinting, and programming by rote repetition, repeated temple attendance, talks from the "mouthpiece of the Lord" (the leaders) etc., and is the impetus for the disconnect when a Mormon woman is faced with an apostate husband.

Escapee Describes Sex Horrors of Mormon Polygamy

Author: Deconstructor

Her story is very touching. She is an Ex-Mormon hero in my book, for leaving the tight mental grip of the FLDS Church.


"But even though I hadn't wanted to marry [50 year-old] Merril, didn't love him, let alone like him, I still believed in the FLDS doctrines."

"I thought my husband was the revelation the prophet had received for me. I believed I was destined to bear his children and serve him until he died."

"I also realized the only way to protect myself in my marriage was by remaining of sexual value to him."

"Sex was the only currency I had to spend in my marriage - every polygamist wife knows that."

"A woman who possesses a high sex status with her husband has more power over his other wives."

"If she becomes unattractive to him, she is on dangerous ground - usually winding up as a slave to the dominant wife."

"So although I hated Merril touching me, I knew I had to make myself attractive to him, even though there was no chemistry between us and our sex life was always perfunctory."

"Nevertheless, I did bear him eight children - all of whom were regularly beaten by their father."

"The only way I could stop Merril beating my children was to have sex with him."

"But when my seventh child, Harrison, developed cancer as a baby and was whisked away to hospital, I finally realised that no one in our community cared about him."

"This whole experience was a wake-up call for me. For 32 years I'd been brainwashed into thinking that every person outside the FLDS was evil - but suddenly I saw the only people willing to fight for Harrison's life, and stay at his bedside, were outsiders, the wonderful doctors and nurses who saved his life."

"I secretly started to make plans to flee - from my husband, from the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints and from its leader Warren Jeffs."

"And so, in April 2003, at the age of 35 and with just $20 to my name, I ran away with my eight children."

"I packed my eight children into our van and drove away from the compound, even though my 12-year-old Betty was screaming: 'Mother, you're stealing us. Uncle Warren will come and get us. We don't belong to you, we belong to the prophet.'"

here's the story

Reading her story really puts context to the talks of Brigham Young and other Mormon Church leaders that created these doctrines that the FLDS try so faithfully to follow.

Compare her modern experience with polygamy with what Mormon women felt about it during
the time of the great prophet Brigham Young.


Author: Christy219

I have a new appreciation for the polygamy doctrine. I have finally come to realize what it is, and how ridiculous the current church members act about it. I was just like them not too long mention of the word polygamy and I was recoiling, explaining how it is no longer doctrine, and taking it the obligatory step further by saying the LDS church takes a clear stance that polygamy is wrong, etc.

But I realize now that Mormons STILL embrace polygamy. While they all talk about how "horrible" it was and think how glad they are that it is no longer "the word of God," in order to be a faithful Mormon you must fully embrace it. Not only are they taught that they will live in polygamy in the CK FOR ALL ETERNITY, but they are also taught to adhere to the teachings of the prophets.

Suppose in 25 years marriage is 'as you like it.' In other words, gays can marry, and polygamy is okay if you choose it to be. Bottom line, it's legal. So the new prophet reinstates (not institutes) polygamy again. The TBM's MUST believe in it and go along with it. It doesn't matter if this never happens, Mormons need to realize that if it did, they would have to be okay with it or find a new church.

So why they all pretend like polygamy is a thing of the past is a real weird thing to me. They're all subjecting themselves to hell on earth in order to be polygamists in the CK. LOL


For the "regular" Mormon, this would be true

Author: ruthm

The regular Mormon or average Mormon wouldn't have studied anything, or rarely reads the BOM, or anything else. They have no idea what the doctrines of the LDS church are. So for them, the current thing they are being told would be what they believe. But for those who have actually read or studied past "prophets" know that is not the case. There is a deeper doctrine that joe schmo doesn't know, and that the hardcore fanatics don't really share with everyone. It is still a doctrine as long as it is in the D&C, everything that any LDS prophet said is still a doctrine, no matter what the current prophets say, and anyone that is a hardcore member will tell you that.


Mormon Doctrine 101 - D&C 132 is official Cannonized doctrine.

Author: SusieQ#1

It is a continuing part of the current temple sealing/eternal marriage ordinances, performed daily in all of their temples

There is no way it can be considered anything but official church doctrine.

If the average Mormon does not know this, they do not know their own church teachings/doctrine/official scriptures and probably have not read D&C 132!
(Very possible, and probably very likely!):-)


Author: Use to be Mormon

So, if this is true why can a man "today" be sealed to another woman in the Temple and receive the Everlasting Marriage Covenant? [If the first wife is deceased] Because Mormons do believe in polygamy just not here on earth, only in heaven "the highest degree of heaven the Celestial Kingdom"! The Mormon church can hide behind it's facade about we don't practice polygamy today it was banded over 100 years ago, but the real TRUTH is they DO BELIEVE in polygamy and must accept this practice or be burned to damnation, just like Joseph Smith told Emma in D&C 132!

So did God and the Prophets divorce their wives?

Author: Deconstructor

According to Joseph Smith and other early LDS Prophets, the law of plural marriage is "everlasting." According to LDS scripture, God and the prophets practiced polygamy. It is the only marriage system in heaven.

So when the church stopped practicing polygamy, did God and the prophets in heaven divorce their wives?

Is God the Father now a monogamist in yonder heaven?

Inspired Church leaders spent decades condemning monogamy as the devil's marriage system - a counterfeit to the celestial way of the Lord.

See here

Did this change? Did the Lord end polygamy in heaven?

Of course not. That's why D&C 132 still LDS scripture.

As Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explained:

"Obviously the holy practice (of polygamy) will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium."


The long time it took to realize what polygamy really was, and is.

Author: lightfingerlouie

I grew up in a very orthodox family, full of the usual stories about "the Prophet," his greatness, and all he did.

I learned how the Mormons had been badly persecuted, and how everyone who spoke against the church was a "liar." So many liars. So very many liars.

I was told that Joseph Smith had numerous wives. But I was told the sanitized version, with "marriages" that did not involve sex, 14 year old girls, the wives of other men, and a life of lying, cheating, and skulking around from bed to bed.

I was even taught most of the problems were Emma's fault. She was the "weaker vessel," who could not come to terms with the Lord's program. She was so weak, I was taught, she left the fold when Joseph died. Brigham Young said "Joseph will have to go into hell to get her."


On my mission, I was constantly asked about polygamy. I gave the standard answers. I believed them myself. I could not understand it, but it "came from the Lord."

The first sense of just how awful it all was came years after my mission, when I read "The Giant Joshua," Maurine Whipple's novel about early Mormonism and polygamy in St. George. I first learned about the way arrangements were made, and how they were enforced----"blood atonement."

It made me question. I was not taught this. It sounded awful, but it made sense. How else could the stupid and pathetic practice of polygamy be enforced? It had to involve threats.

I have since read the good books about Mormon polygamy. That includes "Under the Banner of Heaven," 'Tell it All," and "Wife No. 19." It hit me very hard. Polygamy, as practiced by Warren Jeffs, is the same kind of polygamy practiced by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. It did not change at all. The same methods used by the early church are used now. To make it work, you must remove all freedom from the women. They must become property.

Women were, and are, chattel. Girls are married off young, and assigned to the role of slacking the lust of 50 year old lechers who should be arrested and castrated. They are not patriarchs, they are child molesters. They operate under the guise of the 'holy Priesthood," which is just an excuse to pick and choose the nubile girls. Some sacred authority that is.

The whole damned thing is sick. It is beyond pathetic. But it goes on and on and on. Joseph started it, and it never would go away. It took on a life of its own, and became a huge monster that cannot be controlled. One man's desire for sexual experimentation led to hundreds of ruined lives, child molestation, and a sick, sick theology. How utterly nauseating it is.

I cannot stand to hear Mormons talk about it now. "We will practice it in the Celestial Kingdom," or "It will come back when we are worthy,"

Can't these dopes figure it out? It is not holy, pure, or moral. It is just sick. It has, at least done one thing. It has prevented the Mormon church from ever having a shot at being mainstream. They will never be accepted as a normal faith. The baggage of polygamy will hold them down forever.


Subject: Top 10 Reasons Smith Likely Had Sex With His Teen Brides

Author: Deconstructor

One of the most common denials regarding Joseph Smith is that he did not intend to have sex with his 14 year-old bride Helen Mar Kimball.

The fact that Joseph Smith married 14 year-old Helen is undisputed by church historians and apologists. That he did so by promising her family salvation is also accepted by Mormons who know church history.

Yet some still try and argue that because there is no physical evidence of sexual relations between Smith and his bride, that the relationship was merely "dynastic" and was not about sex.

No, there is no stained dress or other physical evidence of a sexual relationship. But the history record is pretty clear what Smith's polygamy was all about.

Here are the top ten reasons why I think Joseph Smith intended to have sex with his teen bride, Helen Mar Kimball:

1. According to current LDS scripture, sex was the only reason Joseph Smith was commanded to marry virgins "a hundred fold" in this life. See D&C 132:62-63.

2. Smith received this "Divine Law" to only take virgins, which also exempted him from adultery (a sex sin), during the very same time he married Helen. He married Helen in May of 1843 and wrote D&C 132 a month later!

3. There is no recorded revelation during Joseph Smith's lifetime that he should enter into polygamy for dynastic or any other purpose other than "raising up seed." To those who say Smith married Helen for something other than sex, I ask: "where is the revelation?"

4. In the Book of Mormon the Lord expressly forbids polygamy for any other reason than to "raise up seed." See BoM Jacob 24-30. So a dynastic-only marriage would have violated God's commandemnt.

5. Joseph Smith had sex with his other teen wives, including Fanny Alger, age 16, Sarah Ann Whitney, age 17, Lucy Walker, age 17, and Flora Ann Woodworth, age 16. So why not Helen? (In fact, Smith secretly married Helen in the same month he married Lucy and Flora!)

6. Helen said it was more than just a ceremony. In her own testimony, she wrote "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it."

7. Joseph Smith did not describe his plural marriages as mere dynastic. He told his close friend and scribe William Clayton that Helen and the other teen girls "were his lawful, wedded wives, according to the celestial order" and "his lawful wives in the sight of Heaven."

8. In Nauvoo, Smith bragged about the pleasure he got from his teen brides, saying one "had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed."

9. Everyone Joseph Smith taught his polygamy doctrine to had sex with their secret brides. None of them thought they were merely dynastic relationships.

10. Those close to Joseph Smith understood he married these women for sex. When Helen's father, Heber C. Kimball, asked Sister Eliza R. Snow the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith, she replied, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that."

So why didn't Helen get pregnant?

It's likely that at age 14, Helen was still not physically mature enough to get pregnant. Girls that age in the 19th century did not start menstruating until age 17 to 19.

See: here

So where is the evidence Smith's plural marriages were about sex?

There is more evidence to suggest that Joseph Smith had sex with his wives than there is that he saw God and Jesus in 1820. If Mormons will believe that story with such weak support, why will they not accept such a strong case for Joseph Smith practicing polygamy as the Lord commanded?

If you read D&C 132 you'll note how it bestows upon Smith the "blessings of Abraham," which, in Mormon theology, was the blessing of endless posterity. The "revelation" goes on to command Smith to "go and do the works of Abraham."

Also, verse 63 gives the *only* reason for Smith to plural marry: "for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment..."

Again, ALL of Smith's statements to those to whom he introduced into polygamy affirmed that the practice was to have sex and children, rather than to care for old widows. Following are several statements from early Mormons which help to explain the concept. Benjamin Johnson was a close follower of Joseph Smith, and the brother of one of Smith's plural wives, Almera Johnson. Benjamin wrote in his journal that Smith had taught:

"The first command was to 'multiply' and the prophet taught us that Dominion and power in the great Future would be commensurate with the number of 'wives children & friends' that we inherit here and that our great mission to earth was to organize a [nucleus] of Heaven to take with us. To the increase of which there would be no end."

Mosiah Hancock, another disciple of Smith, wrote "Bro Joseph said 'the Lord has revealed to me that it is his will that righteous men shall take righteous women even a plurality of wives that a righteous race may be sent forth upon the earth preparatory to the ushering in of the Millenial Reign of our Redeemer---For the Lord has such a high respect for the nobles of his kingdom that he is not willing for them to come through the loins of a careless
people.' "

Another example is from the journal of Helen Tracy, who wrote of a conversation between herself, Lorenzo Snow, and apostle Rudger Clawson:

"The Principle was quite a trial to Sister V. K. [Vilate Kimball, wife of apostle Heber Kimball] but she essayed to submit to it and went and chose two very old maids of quite plain and homely appearance for her husband Bro K[imball] spoke to the Prophet Joseph about it and he said, Bro K that arrangement is of the devil you go and get you a young wife one you can take to your bosom and love and raise children by. A man should choose his own wife and one he can love and get children by." (As quoted in "Prisoner for Polygamy: The Memoirs and Letters of Rudger Clawson," p. 12.)

Brigham Young re-affirmed this doctrine when he preached:

"Birth control----There are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles [bodies], now what is our duty?---To prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can. This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, so that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth."
(Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 197.)

Maybe Smith only INTENDED to have sex with Helen?


As Randy Jordan has pointed out:

"We have no indisputable evidence that Smith had sex with the 14-year-old Helen; but considering Smith's sexual activities with other women, including teenagers, there is no reason to believe that he didn't intend to have sex with Helen and produce children, just as he did with others."

"It was common during the polygamy period for men to go ahead and plural marry desirable pre-pubescent girls in order to secure them into their harems and prevent them from marrying other men. Then when the girl had reached puberty, she would begin having babies. This is likely why Helen, even if she did not have sex with Smith, complained about not being able to socialize like other girls her age: it was her after-the-fact realization that she had been deceived into joining Smith's harem, and thus becoming ineligible to be courted by young, single suitors."

Let's also remember that

a) At the time Smith "plural married" Helen, he had many other women with whom he could have sex with; so he could have kept Helen "in reserve" for the time when she reached puberty, or perhaps when Smith was horny and no other woman happened to be available

b) Smith was killed 13 months after his sealing to Helen, so he simply may not have had the opportunity to consummate their relationship before his death. However, it's a virtual certainty that he would have if he had lived.

The bottom line is that it is futile for Mormon Apologists to argue that Smith's sealing to Helen was "dynastic" or "spiritual" only, in an effort to show that Smith's plural marriages to young girls were proper. Helen's own complaint that she was "deceived" into the sealing, and that she would not have agreed to it if she had known in advance that it was to be anything other than "spiritual," is enough to show the impropriety of Smith's motives and actions.

There's simply no good reason to believe that had he not been killed, Smith would not have had sex with Helen just as he did with his other so-called wives.

Details here

Sunday, April 06, 2008

General Conference April 2008: Thomas Monson Wants Ex-Mormons to Come Back

Mormons who have strayed from their faith were invited to return to the fold Sunday by the church's new president.

President Thomas S. Monson said members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are ready to welcome "the less active, the offended, the critical, the transgressor" into fellowship.

"Come back," Monson said in his first address to the full church membership since becoming president in February.

WTF? It’s as easy as that, huh? All I have to do is step in to my old ward next Sunday and my newly installed bishop, (who never laid eyes on me in his life) will just welcome me with open arms and no questions? Why? Because Tommy said so?

They still don’t get it do they? Those of us who left, did it for a reason! A real, honest-to-goodness reason not to believe in it anymore! Mine was because they refused to seal my children to me because my ex-husband objected. Has THAT requirement been removed yet? So, what’s in it for me anymore? If it hadn’t been for that, I wouldn’t have had any reason to become “critical” of the church in the first place. I probably would have happily continued to “believe in the absence of evidence to the contrary”, because the evidence would have remained tucked away and hidden in the books and websites of the dreaded Anti-Mormon conspiracy, (aka Satan’s minions) and I would never have known that it was Joseph who started the practice of polygamy, and it was Brigham Young who insisted that he was Joseph’s rightful heir to the presidency, by virtue of his placement in the church heirarchy. I would have never known just how many offshoots of the “one true church” there really were, back in the days of Nauvoo. I wouldn’t have learned anything about the Kirtland Bank folding, the Kinderhook plates, or the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor newspaper office that lead to Joseph’s arrest in the first place. I’m being labeled as “critical”? Why is that Tommy Boy? Because I had an opportunity to discover what you would have happily held away from my eyes for the rest of my life, and all because of the chauvinistic attitude that prevented me from having my children sealed to me JUST BECAUSE I divorced their father?

I just wish that something equally “offensive” would happen to my sister or my mother. Because at this point, that’s what it’s gonna take to send them on the path of discovery. They are going to have to jump through some mighty flaming hoops to obtain some sort of blessing that they have been promised, and when they finally get tired of being the blame taker for the failures of that promise, they might take a serious look at how they got there in the first place.

Here’s a suggestion for you, Tommy Monson: How bout if YOU take a few steps in the right direction, in order to make the So-Called “true” church, as open and inviting as you pretend it to be….

Exmo Community Urges Mormon Leadership to Come Clean

The COJCOLDS, also known as "The Mor-mons" and by the former Mormon community as LDS Inc., urges President Tommy Monson and his fellow executives to come clean with the public about the truth behind their successful marketing ploy to run a corporation masquerading as a religion.

The church, which is actually a multinational corporation that receives 10 per cent of the income of its naive adherents, no questions asked, is among America's most successful cults wherein the top leaders benefit but are secretive as to how their income and lives are led. They give the impression to their faithful flock that they have a direct link to God and Jesus, meanwhile are in the real estate business, involved in building shopping malls and other developments, running colleges and universities, other tourism related ventures such as the Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii. They are also reported as being the original bankers of the casino business in Las Vegas, which is highly ironic due to their anti gambling, smoking and drinking regulations for average members.

The corporation-masquerading-as-religion imposes strict lifestyle rules on their members, taking up large quanitties of their time and money, meanwhile claiming to offer peace, happiness and close families. In reality, they tend to divide families by keeping them together only when engaged in Mormon activities, otherwise encouraging them to spend time segregated in various "jobs" known as "callings" and focusing on church activities rather than actual time spent together, despite their "Happy Family" rhetoric in TV commercials. They are also prone to dividing families when one or more family members decides to depart Mormonism or speaks out against its so-called doctrines and various impositions on individuals and families.

As for me, this is what it would take personally to get me to stop being “critical” and come back to the church that claims it wants me so bad.

I’ll Come Back to the Church When….

1. My children and I can be sealed together WITHOUT a husband/father figure.

2. My non-member family can witness weddings in the temple.

3. All members are invited to take part in the Second Anointing ordinance.

4. My temple recommend is not renewed based on amount of tithing payments.

5. True history is discussed. Joseph Smith's life is open for analysis, as well as all other leaders of the church.

6. Prophets are no longer considered the great communicator and intercessor between us and God.

7. Bishops remove all "notes" from personal files.

8. Forgiveness is something between God and the individual, and no longer requires Courts of Love to process.

9. My sons can wear whatever damn color shirt they want to and no tie. And my daughters can wear flip flops and have their ears double-pierced without condemnation or judgment.

10. I can have a meaningful relationship with the members that is NOT based on how well I follow the crowd and conform to the Mormon standard, or whether or not my husband is an active member, or how many children I have, or what my particular calling is within the ward.

This is a short list. There are MANY more things that I would have to see discussed, evaluated, and possibly removed, (like the washing/anointing part of the temple, or having to wear a thick suffocating veil over my face, and an ugly green apron over my dress, so I can pretend to be ‘fallen’ and ‘under Satan’s rule’ while on earth). Maybe this list is considered fighting against the holy order of the true church. Maybe I am requiring God’s will to be bent to suit me. Maybe God really is this narrow and expects complete conformity and obedience in order to be admitted into heaven. But it sounds an awful lot like the alternate plan that was supposedly rejected and got Lucifer thrown out of heaven in the first place. This God that requires complete obedience conformity, who uses secret combinations to bind the hearts and minds of men into covenants with him, who will not tolerate the use of their own intellect and insists on complete faith as a substitute for reasoning and doubt, is a God I’d rather not be involved with. It’s too similar to what the Christians call Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, the Father of Lies. No thanks. I’ll just stick to an old Abraham Lincoln school of thought:

When I do good, I feel good.
When I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion.

Simple. Not flowery, not proud, and certainly not against any Biblical commandment that I can think of. Unless, of course, I’m being carefully led down to Hell anyway, by a master trickster who uses “the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture”. God sure is vague isn’t he? Even the Bible itself is a mess of contradictions, missing portions, and outrageous laws spelled out in Leviticus. Go ahead, peruse that section of the Bible and see if God is “full of love and grace”.

I’ve had enough of this. I’m going full throttle again, against the LDS church. I’m going to use these talks given in General Conference this weekend as my propeller. I’m gonna make them answer me once and for all. I want to know from my mom and my sister: What’s in it for you? Why do you remain committed even after you see that I cannot obtain (by their OWN decree and rules) what they promise EVERY convert? How is it that you can remain when you KNOW that you can’t obtain it either? Why do you stay and put up with the pressure to conform, the warnings and the bitch-out sessions from “those in authority” when you fail to measure up? What the hell is it going to take for you to look out the window and see this church from the outside?