The Best Proof--Part 6

Brigham Young taught that Adam was God.
"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).

****My thoughts****

Hey, Mitt, did you know that Brigham Young taught this? And did you know that he also said there has never been a sermon preached by him that the saints could not call scripture?

Can you honestly tell me that Brigham Young was the voice of the Lord, prophet, seer, and rightful authority of the 'restored church'?

I have a relative who claims that he has the entire set of the Journal of Discourses, has read them all, loves each and every one of the sermons and would bet his life that these men are prophets. So, tomorrow, just for him (because I know he has been on this site snooping around again), I will be posting some excerpts of OTHER "prophets" of the church, complete with the links back to the beloved Journal of Discourses that he claims superior knowledge about, and maybe he can do some real reading for a change. Topics including: the inferior black race, the proper use of women, the true nature of Jesus' conception, how many men live on the moon and the sun as well, and other choice tidbits.

The Best Proof--Part 5

The Sun Gets Its Light from Kolob.

Translation given by Joseph Smith of the Facimile 2 papyrus:

“Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.” (Book of Abraham, Facsimile 2, Figure #5 explanation.)

http://nowscape.com/mormon/kolob-defined.htm

According to Joseph Smith, the scrolls described a vision of Abraham, in which Abraham:

"saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;....and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest." (Book of Abraham 3:2-3.)

The explanation of an Egyptian hypocephalus that was part of the scrolls says:

"Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. The measurement according to celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh." (Book of Abraham, Facsimile 2, Figure #1 explanation.)

Also described is a hierarchy of heavenly bodies, earth, moon, and sun, with different revolutions and time, where the slowest-revolving body is Kolob whose day is 1000 years:

"...Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord's time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

"... The planet which is the lesser light...is above or greater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years.

"And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still; and thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest." (Book of Abraham 3:4-9; also Book of Abraham, Facsimile #2, explanation to Figure #2.)

***What it actually says, as translated by actual Egyptian scholars, can be found here***

Implausibility of Sun getting its light from Kolob

“It is the process of nuclear fusion that makes the stars shine…With the discovery of quantum mechanics, scientists soon learned that the sun’s source of energy is internal, and not external. The Sun shines, as we have seen, because of thermonuclear fusion. It does not get its light from any other star. And there is no star called Kolob that gives light to the stars, either. They all shine by nuclear processes, burning the nuclear fuel in their cores.” p 116

“It’s hard to imagine two ways of looking at the cosmos that could be more different than modern cosmology and LDS doctrine. For example, LDS doctrine regarding astronomy is permeated with references to time being measured, or “reckoned” according to a star’s or planet’s rate of rotation. Furthermore, this “reckoning of time” is a prime distinguisher in terms of “greatness.” From the standpoint of modern cosmology, this makes no sense at all. Rates of rotation are largely arbitrary, and of little comment or concern from a fundamental point of view…There is little correlation between a planet’s rate of rotation and either its size or mass…

Furthermore, for bodies like the sun, the question makes no sense at all because the sun, being a ball of plasma, rotates at different rates, depending on the distance from the center of the sun, and the latitude. (25.4 days at the equator and 36.0 days at the poles). In other words, the Sun does not have a well-defined rate of rotation. It depends. This is true for other stars as well; so talking about their rates of rotation as if this was some sort of special defining attribute makes little sense and is of little fundamental interest or value in cosmology…

Now, from Abraham, we are told that Kolob is great, rotates very slowly, and was the first star made (first creation). Yet (as we learned in the previous section) the largest (great) stars burn through their nuclear fuel very quickly, and end up as supernovae, typically leaving behind a neutron star that is unimaginable dense and rotating very fast. For Kolob to still be a star, and the first creation, and rotating very slowly, it must be a small star. Perhaps something like a brown dwarf, a star that’s so small it can barely sustain any nuclear processes at all. As such, its mass and energy output would be relatively small. So it would hardly be “great” or control/govern any other bodies in the universe. In short, the idea that the first star is great, and still a significant star (not burnt out) is contradictory.

This is no trivial problem. The idea that the first star is still around, and has a very low rate of rotation, is inconsistent with what we know of stellar evolution. For that first star to be still shining, it must have been very small. Otherwise, it would have long ago burned all its nuclear fuel and would now be a black hole, or a very small neutron star that is rotating very quickly.”

To ponder: Why can’t the Hubble Space Telescope see Kolob? http://hubblesite.org/

Critic’s comment: The idea that our star got it’s light and power from another star was a theory known in Joseph’s time. Joseph likely just believed what the scientists of his day believed and incorporated that into scripture. Reference: An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, Grant Palmer, chapter 1.

The Best Proof--Part 4

Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG, delivered in the

Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 9, 1859.

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.

A Discourse by President Brigham Young,

Delivered in the Tabernacle,

Great Salt Lake City, Feb. 18, 1855

In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the "servant of servants," and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord should permit them to welter under the curse, and those were known to be our religious views concerning them.

Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG, made in the Tabernacle,

Great Salt Lake City, March 8, 1863

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.


***My Thoughts***

If Gordon Hinckley doesn't know why it took clear up to 1978 to allow black men to become priesthood holders, what kind of a prophet could he possibly be?

Here's the golden question: As a True-Believing Mormon, how could you possibly consider Brigham Young to have been a prophet of God, when his prophecy of "death on the spot" obviously did NOT come to pass?

Want a list of failed prophecies? For starters:

• Brigham Young - A person of Jewish blood will always apostatize from the LDS faith. — Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 142 (December 12, 1854)

• Brigham Young - Cain and his posterity will remain cursed and not receive the priesthood until all other children of Adam have had this privilege. — Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 143 (December 12, 1854)

• Brigham Young - Before 26 years go by LDS elders will be as much thought of as kings on their thrones. — Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 40 (August 31, 1856)

• Heber C. Kimball - "Brigham Young will become President of the United States." — Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 219 (September 6, 1856)

• Brigham Young - The mark of Cain is a flat nose and black skin. — Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290 (October 9, 1859)

• Brigham Young - The curse will remain on blacks so that they can never hold the Mormon priesthood until all other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood. — Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 291 (October 9, 1859)

• Brigham Young - The present struggle (Civil War) will not free the descendants of Ham who are slaves. — Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 250 (October 6, 1863)

• George Q. Cannon - A temple shall be reared in the Center Stake of Zion in the generation in which the the revelation was given. — Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 344 (October 23, 1864), cf. D&C 84 prediction of temple to be built in Zion, Missouri.

• Brigham Young, "the only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." — Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269 (August 19, 1866)

• Orson Pratt - The Lord will return the Mormons to Zion in Jackson county Missouri. — Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 138 (April 10, 1870)

• Orson Pratt - "God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had passed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County." — Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 362 (May 5, 1870)

• Orson Pratt - "God said in the year 1832 ..." — Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p. 111 (June 14, 1874)

• Brigham Young - For Congress to demand relinquishment of polygamy is to ask for renunciation of entire faith. All talk of another revelation is childish babble. Mormonism is in its entirety revelation from God or nothing at all. Millennial Star, vol. 27, p. 675-676

• Heber C. Kimball - Plurality of wives is a law established by God forever. It would be easier for the United States to build a tower to remove the sun as to remove polygamy. Millennial Star, vol. 28, p. 190

• Brigham Young - "as the Lord lives we will build up Jackson County in this generation" — Times & Seasons, vol. 6, p. 956 (April 6, 1845)

***How can Brigham Young possibly be considered a prophet? He failed the test!Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (New International Version)

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Here's some more from Joseph Smith, the first 'false prophet' of Mormonism:

Joseph Smith - A city shall be built, New Jerusalem [State of Missouri], in which a temple shall be reared in this generation — Doctrine and Covenants 84:3-5 (September 22 & 23, 1832)

• Joseph Smith - City of Zion, Missouri shall "become glorious, very great and very terrible," and "Surely Zion is the city of our God, and surely Zion cannot fall, neither be moved out of her place...". Doctrine and Covenants 97:18-20 (August 2, 1833)

• Joseph Smith - Mormons will return to Zion, the only place God has appointed for the saints. [Zion is Independence, MO. The Mormons were driven out of Missouri in 1838. Doctrine and Covenants 101:16-21 (December 16, 1833)

• Joseph Smith - Treasure, gold and silver, would be found in Salem, Massachusetts and would be theirs. Doctrine and Covenants 111:1-11 (August 6, 1836)

• Joseph Smith - "Verily thus saith the Lord ..." David Patten to go on a mission the following spring (1839). — Doctrine and Covenants 114:1-2 (April 17, 1838). In fact, Patten died in battle, Oct. 25, 1838. — History of the Church, vol. 3, p. 171 (October 25, 1838)

• Joseph Smith - Far West is to be a holy city and the location of the Lord's House. [No temple was ever built there.] Doctrine and Covenants 115:7-12 (April 26, 1838)

• Joseph Smith - The name of Oliver Granger shall be had in sacred remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever. Doctrine and Covenants 117:12-15 (July 8, 1838)

• Joseph Smith - Revelation regarding John C. Bennett who is to help Joseph Smith, "And for his love he shall be great" Doctrine and Covenants 124:16-17 (January 19, 1841). Joseph did make Bennett Nauvoo's mayor, but unbeknownst to Joseph, Bennett had abandoned his wife and family in Indiana and was professing to be Nauvoo's most eligible bachelor (Joseph Smith the Mormon, p. 147-148). Joseph would later write of Bennett: "It is evident that his general character is that of an adulterer of the worst kind. ... More than twenty months [since the Fall of 1840] ago Bennett went to a lady in the city and began to teach her that promiscuous intercourse between the sexes was lawful and no harm in it, and requested the privilege of gratifying his passions; ... and in order to finish the controversy, said and affirmed that I both taught and acted in the same manner. (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 42)

• Joseph Smith - Prophecy by the authority of Jesus Christ of a soon to come time of bloodshed, pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake. — History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 315 (January 4, 1833)

• Joseph Smith - Joseph's father's prophecy that Joseph would continue in the Priest's office until Christ comes. — History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 323 (January 23, 1833)

• Joseph Smith - Made known to him in vision and by the Spirit that the coming of the Lord was nigh, 56 years should wind up the scene. — History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 182 (February 14, 1835)

• Joseph Smith - "I prophesy in the name of the Lord god of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed ... in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left" — History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394 (May 18, 1843)

• Joseph Smith - "I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, anguish and wrath and tribulation and the withdrawing of the Spirit of God from the earth await this generation, until they are visited with utter desolation. ... I prophesy they never will have power to kill me till my work is accomplished, and I am ready to die." — History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 58 (October 15, 1843)

****

It seems pretty obvious that Joseph Smith failed the test as well. So, flash forward to Gordon Hinckley the current Mormon "prophet". What sort of things has he "prophesied"?

Gordon B. Hinckley, in an interview reported in the San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, commented on revelation and the present-day church:

Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?

A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received.

These words of Hinckley were prophesied over 2000 years ago (or 170 years ago, if you think Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon):

2 Nephi 28:27-30

Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more! ... 29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough! 30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: ... for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

Micah 3:5-11

Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, ... 6 Therefore night [shall be] unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. 7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for [there is] no answer of God. ... 11 ... yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, [Is] not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

***Where are your prophets, True-Believing Mormons? Without them, how can the Mormon church claim 'restoration of ALL things? What marvelous works are coming to pass in this day? The biggest project the church has going right now is the TWO BILLION DOLLAR Crossroads Mall under construction across the street from Temple Square. This is while simultaneously CUTTING the missionaries food budget of $145 per month to $130 permanently.

Don't believe me? Check with a missionary, or the families of missionaries who support their loved ones with $400 a month, only to find that $130 is all they are allowed to use for groceries, laundry, toilet paper and medicine!!!

The Best Proof of False Teachings are Found Within the Church--Part 3

Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG, in the Bowery,

in G.S.L. City, August 19th, 1866.

Every virtuous woman desires a husband to whom she can look for guidance and protection through this world. God has placed this desire in woman's nature. It should be respected by the stronger sex. Any man who takes advantage of this, and humbles a daughter of Eve to rob her of her virtue, and cast her off dishonored and defiled, is her destroyer, and is responsible to God for the deed. If the refined Christian society of the nineteenth century will tolerate such a crime, God will not; but he will call the perpetrator to an account. He will be damned; in hell he will lift up his eyes, being in torment, until he has paid the uttermost farthing, and made a full atonement for his sins. It is this very class of men, though not all of them, who have set up such a howl against the doctrine of polygamy, which is so much despised and which was believed in and practiced by the ancients-by the very men who are held up to us as patterns of all the piety that was ever exhibited through man upon the face of the earth.

This matter was a little changed in the case of the Savior of the world, the Son of the living God. The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a bastard. This is merely a human opinion upon one of the inscrutable doings of the Almighty. That very babe that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our heavenly Father. This answer may suffice you-you need never inquire more upon that point. Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father, and he is the Savior of the world, and full of grace and truth. It is not polygamy that men fight against when they persecute this people; but, still, if we continue to be faithful to our God, he will defend us in doing what is right. If it is wrong for a man to have more than one wife at a time, the Lord will reveal it by and by, and he will put it away that it will not be known in the Church. I did not ask Him for the revelation upon this subject. When that revelation was first read to me by Joseph Smith, I plainly saw the great trials and the abuse of it that would be made by many of the Elders, and the trouble and the persecution that it would bring upon this whole people. But the Lord revealed it, and it was my business to accept it.

Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God. We desire to attain to the possession of all the blessings there are for the most faithful man or people that ever lived upon the face of the earth, even him who is said to be the father of the faithful, Abraham of old. We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many, and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: "We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"-the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessing offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it. Now, then, it is said that this must be done away before we are permitted to receive our place as a State in the Union. It may be, or it may not be. One of the twin relics-slavery-they say, is abolished. I do not, however, wish to speak about this; but if slavery and oppression and iron-handed cruelty are not more felt by the blacks to-day than before, I am glad of it. My heart is pained for that unfortunate race of men. One twin relic having been strangled, the other, they say, must next be destroyed. It is they and God for it, and you will all find that out. It is not Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Daniel H. Wells and the Elders of Israel they are fighting against; but it is the Lord Almighty. What is the Lord going to do? He is going to do just as he pleases, and the world cannot help themselves.

I heard the revelation on polygamy, and I believed it with all my heart, and I know it is from God-I know that he revealed it from heaven; I know that it is true, and understand the bearings of it and why it is. "Do you think that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principle of polygamy?" If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted. These things will be just as the Lord will. Let us live to take just what he sends to us, and when our enemies rise up against us, we will meet them as we can, and exercise faith and pray for wisdom and power more than they have, and contend continually for the right. Go along, my children, saith the Lord, do all you can, and remember that your blessings come through your faith. Be faithful and cut the corners of your enemies where you can-get the advantage of them by faith and good works, take care of yourselves, and they will destroy themselves. Be what you should be, live as you should, and all will be well.

***My Thoughts***

I know that many will say, "well, polygamy has been done away with". Has it really? Is it not true that a man can be sealed to his unbelieving ex-wife and to his new wife simultaneously? Is it not also true that a woman cannot be sealed to another man unless the first is dissolved by order of the First Presidency? When did they EVER stop sealing men to more than one wife? True, the co-habitation of multiple wives has become an offense worthy of excommunication. But there are men upon the earth who ARE sealed to more than one spouse, sometimes in the case of a widower re-marrying ( Russell M. Nelson). So, ha-ha, America. Mormons STILL practice polygamy!! Just not out in the open, or for the purpose of begetting children...

Just thought I'd mention here that it really didn't make sense for the church to proclaim that polygamy was necessary to procreate children and get bodies ready for the spirits to inhabit them. Why couldn't a woman do that by marrying a man who didn't already have a wife? As far as I can tell, women can only be pregnant every nine months right? I mean it's not possible to have a baby once a month, so the fastest she could go is about one pregnancy every year. Why would it matter who the father is? would that make procreation happen more often?

Polygamy was an excuse to collect wives, and have children under your control and authority. Women didn't NEED to be collected by men who already had multiple wives, they were denied the right to be married of their own choosing because of the hierarchy of the church. Women were 'given to' WORTHY men, often 30 years their senior. Men their own age often had to wait to become fathers until after they reached a certain 'station of priesthood rank' before they too could enter into the polygamy practice.

Tell me how polygamy could possibly have made things easier on the women. Tell me how God's plan could be fulfilled by becoming wife 25 and having virtually no personal relationship with the father of your children. How is this different than the world we live in today, where more than half of the children in the U.S. are being raised by women alone? Is THAT God's plan?

Do you still believed Brigham Young was a prophet? Tune in tomorrow, and I'll tell you some of his 'prophecies' that never came to pass, and a few that completely backfired on 'God's mouthpiece."

The Best Proof of False Teachings are Found Within the Church--Part 2

A Discourse by President Brigham Young,

Delivered in the Tabernacle,

Great Salt Lake City, March 16, 1856.

A few of the men and women who go into the house of the Lord, and receive their endowments, and in the most sacred manner make covenants before the Almighty, go and violate those covenants. Do I have compassion on them? Yes, I do have mercy on them, for there is something in their, organization which they do not understand; and there are but few in this congregation who do understand it.

You say, "That man ought to die for transgressing the law of God." Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands. But you who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged.

Every man and women has got to have clean hands and a pure heart, to execute judgment, else they had better let the matter alone.

Again, suppose the parties are not caught in their iniquity, and it passes along unnoticed, shall I have compassion on them? Yes, I will have compassion on them, for transgressions of the nature already named, or for those of any other description. If the Lord so order it that they are not caught in the act of their iniquity, it is pretty good proof that He is willing for them to live; and I say let them live and suffer in the flesh for their sins, for they will have it to do.

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants. To what degree? Will they have to go to hell? They are in hell enough now. I do not wish them in a greater hell, when their consciences condemn them all the time. Let compassion reign in our bosoms. Try to comprehend how weak we are, how we are organized, how the spirit and the flesh are continually at war.

I told you here, some time ago, that the devil who tempted Eve, got possession of the earth, and reigns triumphant, has nothing to do with influencing our spirits, only through the flesh; that is a true doctrine. Inasmuch as our spirits are inseparably connected with the flesh, and, inasmuch as the whole tabernacle is filled with the spirit which God gave, if the body is afflicted, the spirit also suffers, for there is a warfare between the flesh and the spirit, and if the flesh overcomes, the spirit is brought into bondage, and if the spirit overcomes, the body is made free, and then we are free indeed, for we are made free by the Son of God. Watch yourselves, and think. As I heard observed, on the evening of the 14th, at the Social Hall, "think, brethren, think," but do not think so far that you cannot think back again. I then wanted to tell a little anecdote, but I will tell it now.

In the eastern country there was a man who used to go crazy, at times, and then come to his senses again. One of his neighbors asked him what made him go crazy; he replied, "I get to thinking, and thinking, until finally I think so far that I am not always able to think back again," Can you think too much for the spirit which is put in the tabernacle? You can, and this is a subject which I wish the brethren instructed upon, and the people to understand. The spirit is the intelligent part of man; and is intimately connected with the tabernacle. Let this intelligent part labor to excess, and it will eventually overcome the tabernacle, the equilibrium will be destroyed, and the whole organization deranged. Many people have deranged themselves by thinking too much.

The thinking part is the immortal or invisible portion, and it is that which performs the mental labor; then the tabernacle, which is formed and organized for that express purpose, brings about or effects the result of that mental labor. Let the body work with the mind, and let them both labor fairly together, and, with but few exceptions, you will have a strong-minded, athletic individual, powerful both physically and mentally.

When you find the thinking faculty perfectly active, in a healthy person, it should put the physical organization into active operation, and the result of the reflection is carried out, and the object is accomplished. In such a person you will see mental and physical health and strength combined, in their perfection. We have the best opportunity afforded any people to cultivate these properties of man.

I do not know that I am trammeled by tradition, or that any of us need to be, hence we are in the best situation to exhibit, through the organization of the tabernacle, the labor and properties of the invisible part. When a person is thinking all the time he is little better than a machine; he perverts the purpose of his organization, and injures both mind and body. Why? Because the mental labor does not find vent through the organism of the tabernacle, and has not that scope-that field of labor which it desires, and which it was wisely designed that it should have. Think according to your labor, labor according to your thinking.

Some think too much, and should labor more, others labor too much, and should think more, and thus maintain an equilibrium between the mental and physical members of the individual; then you will enjoy health and vigor, will be active, and ready to discern truly, and judge quickly. Is it not your privilege to have discernment to circumscribe all things, no matter what subject comes before you, and to at once know the truth concerning any matter? When you see a person of this character, you see one with a healthy and vigorous mind, throughout the whole operations of organization. True, this is not the privilege of every one; some have to do much thinking, and but little manual labor, while others do much manual labor with little, if any thinking. The latter class are as dull and stupid as the brutes, and when their labor is done, they lie down and sleep, like the brutes. They do not think enough, they should bring their minds into active operation, as well as their bodies. Men who do much thinking, philosophers for instance, should apply their bodies to more manual labor, in order to make their bodies more healthy and their minds more vigorous and active.

Let me take twenty years to come, in which to build cities, temples, tabernacles, halls, dwellings, &c., with my mental organization, and not put forth my hands, or use any manual labor, to perform any of this work, do you not perceive that my body would not have labored during all this period, and that my mind would have labored to excess, even to the overcoming of the tabernacle. Again, let me build house after house, hall after hall, temple after temple, &c., my mind would have something to rest upon, and my body being weary with labor, I could lie down, and both would rest together. When I wish to build a temple it costs me much thought, and when I see a temple finished on this block, as I have seen it in the vision of my mind, do you not perceive that the whole of the labor of the mind, on that matter, is at rest? This is my philosophy on thinking; and if I were obliged to think for ten years, and not erect a building, or help build up a city, or in any way put my thoughts into execution, it would materially injure my mental faculty, through want of results for it to rest upon. But let me engage in active operations, even though I do not personally perform one day's manual labor, let me see the result of my thinking budding into existence, and my mind has something to rest upon. If I cannot carry out that which is in my mind-that which I wish to accomplish in all the improvements, in building up Zion in the latter days, as soon as I am deprived of the necessary physical labor I withdraw my mind from that object; I will not suffer my mind to rest upon it. For instance, we are going to suspend labor upon the Temple for a year, until we can prepare ourselves more fully for that work. We have abandoned the idea of using adobies In the walls of that building, and intend to use granite. Now, suppose I should begin to think, and think, and still think about it, are you not aware that it would be a worse than useless waste of time and mental labor? My body would become wearied and languid. I do not expect to think about it for one year; good bye to it, for the present. I must carry out the labor of my mind, or I injure it. Can you go to sleep in one minute, after you have said your prayers and gone to bed? Can you cease reflection, bid good bye to thought, and say to the body, compose yourself and let us go to sleep? How many now in this house can do that? Whether it is natural, or supernatural, mental or mechanical, it matters not, but I have trained myself to go to sleep when I get ready, and when I am in good health, as a general thing, in about one minute I can be fast asleep.

Until you can govern and control the mind and the body, and bring all into subjection to the law of Christ, you have a work to perform touching yourselves. I delight to talk upon the subject of our organization, but I must do so a little at a time, or I might weary your bodies and distract your thoughts. Short sermons fitly spoken, are better than long ones ill spoken.

****My Thoughts****

Still believe that Blood Atonement was never preached or practiced by the Latter-Day Saints?

Ah, but it goes further than I ever supposed, for I never realized that the "limited reach" school of thought began with Brother Brigham. He teaches the value of 'not thinking too much' to his faithful followers, and here we are today, taught to do the same things.

Here's the question again: Do you claim that Brigham Young was the chosen successor to Joseph Smith and was the rightful prophet of the 'restored church'? If you have any doubts about it, re-read the passage from his sermon, imagine yourself there listening and 'feel' your answer from your gut if you can't reason it out in your head. On to part 3 tomorrow...

The Best Proof of False Teachings are Found Within the Church--Part 1

A Discourse by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the

Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, September 21, 1856.

Now for my proposition; it is more particularly for my sisters, as it is frequently happening that women say they are unhappy. Men will say, "My wife, though a most excellent woman, has not seen a happy day since I took my second wife;" "No, not a happy day for a year," says one; and another has not seen a happy day for five years. It is said that women are tied down and abused: that they are misused and have not the liberty they ought to have; that many of them are wading through a perfect flood of tears, because of the conduct of some men, together with their own folly.

I wish my own women to understand that what I am going to say is for them as well as others, and I want those who are here to tell their sisters, yes, all the women of this community, and then write it back to the States, and do as you please with it. I am going to give you from this time to the 6th day of October next, for reflection, that you may determine whether you wish to stay with your husbands or not, and then I am going to set every woman at liberty and say to them, Now go your way, my women with the rest, go your way. And my wives have got to do one of two things; either round up their shoulders to endure the afflictions of this world, and live their religion, or they may leave for I will not have them about me. I will go into heaven alone, rather than have scratching and fighting around me. I will set all at liberty. "What, first wife too?" Yes, I will liberate you all.

I know what my women will say; they will say, "You can have as many women as you please, Brigham." But I want to go somewhere and do something to get rid of the whiners; I do not want them to receive a part of the truth and spurn the rest out of doors.

I wish my women, and brother Kimball's and brother Grant's to leave, and every woman in this Territory, or else say in their hearts that they will embrace the Gospel-the whole of it. Tell the Gentiles that I will free every woman in this Territory at our next Conference. "What, the first wife too?" Yes, there shall not be one held in bondage, all shall be set free. And then let the father be the head of the family, the master of his own household; and let him treat them as an angel would treat them and let the wives and the children say amen to what he says, and be subject to his dictates, instead of their dictating the man, instead of their trying to govern him.

No doubt some are thinking, "I wish brother Brigham would say what would become of the children." I will tell you what my feelings are; I will let my wives take the children, and I have property enough to support them, and can educate them, and then give them a good fortune, and I can take a fresh start.

I do not desire to keep a particle of my property, except enough to protect me from a state of nudity. And I would say, wives you are welcome to the children, only do not teach them iniquity; for if you do, I will send an Elder, or come myself, to teach them the Gospel. You teach them life and salvation, or I will send Elders to instruct them.

Let every man thus treat his wives, keeping raiment enough to clothe his body; and say to your wives, "Take all that I have and be set at liberty; but if you stay with me you shall comply with the law of God, and that too without any murmuring and whining. You must fulfil the law of God in every respect, and round up your shoulders to walk up to the mark without any grunting."

Now recollect that two weeks from to-morrow I am going to set you at liberty. But the first wife will say, "It is hard, for I have lived with my husband twenty years, or thirty, and have raised a family of children for him, and it is a great trial to me for him to have more women;" then I say it is time that you gave him up to other women who will bear children. If my wife had borne me all the children that she ever would bare, the celestial law would teach me to take young women that would have children.

Do you understand this? I have told you many times that there are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles, now what is our duty?-to prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can; hence if my women leave, I will go and search up others who will abide the celestial law, and let all I now have go where they please; though I will send the Gospel to them.

This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth.

If the men of the world were right, or if they were anywhere near right, there might not be the necessity which there now is. But they are wholly given up to idolatry, and to all manner of wickedness.

Do I think that my children will be damned? No, I do not, for I am going to fight the devil until I save them all; I have got my sword ready, and it is a two-edged one. I have not a fear about that, for I would almost be ashamed of my body if it would beget a child that would not abide the law of God, though I may have some unruly children.

I am going to ask you a good many things, and to begin with I will ask, what is your prayer? Do you not ask for the righteous to increase, while the unrighteous shall decrease and dwindle away? Yes, that is the prayer of every person that prays at all. The Methodists pray for it, the Baptists pray for it, and the Church of England and all the reformers, the Shaking Quakers not excepted. And if the women belonging to this Church will turn Shaking Quakers, I think their sorrows will soon be at an end.

Sisters, I am not joking, I do not throw out my proposition to banter your feelings, to see whether you will leave your husbands, all or any of you. But I do know that there is no cessation to the everlasting whining of many of the women in this Territory; I am satisfied that this is the case. And if the women will turn from the commandments of God and continue to despise the order of heaven, I will pray that the curse of the Almighty may be close to their heels, and that it may be following them all the day long. And those that enter into it and are faithful, I will promise them that they shall be queens in heaven and rulers to all eternity.

"But," says one, "I want to have my paradise now." And says another, "I did think I should be in paradise if I was sealed to brother Brigham, and I thought I should be happy when I became his wife, or brother Heber's. I loved you so much, that I thought I was going to have a heaven right off, right here on the spot."

What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here-(laying his hand upon his heart). I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then.

But now we have got to fight the good fight of faith, sword in hand, as much so as men have when they go to battle; and it is one continual warfare from morning to evening, with sword in hand. This is my duty, and this is my life.

But the women come and say, "Really brother John, and brother William, I thought you were going to make a heaven for me," and they get into trouble because a heaven is not made for them by the men, even though agency is upon women as well as upon men. True there is a curse upon the woman that is not upon the man, namely, that "her whole affections shall be towards her husband," and what is the next? "He shall rule over you."

But how is it now? Your desire is to your husband, but you strive to rule over him, whereas the man should rule over you.

Some may ask whether that is the case with me; go to my house and live, and then you will learn that I am very kind, but know how to rule.

If I had only wise men to talk to, there would be no necessity for my saying what I am going to say. Many and many an Elder knows no better than to go home and abuse as good a woman as dwells upon this earth, because of what I have said this afternoon. Are you, who act in that way, fit to have a family? No, you are not, and never will be, until you get good common sense.

Then you can go to work and magnify your callings; and you can do the best you know how; and on that ground I will promise you salvation but upon no other principle.

If I were talking to a people that understood themselves and the doctrine of the holy Gospel, there would be no necessity for saying this, because you would understand. But many have been (what shall I say? pardon me, brethren,) hen-pecked so much, that they do not know the place of either man or woman; they abuse and rule a good woman with an iron hand. With them it is as Solomon said-"Bray a fool in a mortar among wheat, with a pestle, yet will not his foolishness depart from him." You may talk to them about their duties, about what is required of them, and still they are fools, and will continue to be.

Prepare yourselves for two weeks from to-morrow; and I will tell you now, that if you will tarry with your husbands, after I have set you free, you must bow down to it, and submit yourselves to the celestial law. You may go where you please, after two weeks from to-morrow; but, remember, that I will not hear any more of this whining.

****My Thoughts****

Just one question really: Do you sustain Brigham Young as a prophet, seer and revelator?

If you cannot, then your journey out of the trap of Mormonism has begun. Reading the Journal of Discourses, and understanding them to be regarded as scriptures by our Mormon ancestors gives proper perspective on what this church was founded upon. To say otherwise is to deny the sacrifice those trekking pioneers made.

Can Brigham Young be regarded as a prophet, a true mouthpiece for God? More on this subject in the coming posts...

Church can't hide its worth

Supreme Court - The LDS church loses a round in a fight to keep its finances secret on religious grounds

Thursday, July 12, 2007

ASHBEL S. GREEN

The Oregonian Staff

Oregon's top court has rejected the Mormon church's bid to shield detailed financial information about its net worth -- a closely held secret for nearly half a century.

Despite the legal defeat, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not immediately release the financial information to lawyers for a Portland-area man who claims he was molested by a church "home teacher" in the late 1980s.

"The church is considering its position," said Stephen F. English, the LDS church's lead Portland attorney. "The church respects the rule of law but has profound constitutional concerns based on its constitutional right to protect the free expression of its religion."

English said he would renew the church's legal arguments in a hearing Tuesday before Multnomah County Circuit Judge John A. Wittmayer.

Kelly W.G. Clark, a Portland attorney whose client is suing the LDS church, said a jury should have the financial information before considering his request for $45 million in punitive damages.

"A jury needs to know the entire financial context to know whether a punitive award is too much or sufficient or not enough," Clark said.

A trial is scheduled for Aug. 6.

The LDS church has not released financial information since 1959. A book claims it is among the most affluent churches in the world. "Mormon America: The Power and the Promise" estimated the church's net worth at between $25 billion to $30 billion in the late 1990s.

Richard N. Ostling, a former Time Magazine religion writer and co-author of the book, said the church had about $6 billion on Wall Street and in church-controlled businesses and cash. It owned $5 billion in real estate.

"The land owned by the church is roughly comparable to the state of Delaware," Ostling said.

LDS church officials said his estimates were exaggerated but did not offer its own numbers, Ostling said.

"The full financial facts are probably known to only 15 or 20 men in Salt Lake City," he said.

Timothy N. Kosnoff, a Seattle attorney, was seeking the church's financial information in 2001 on behalf of a former Oregon man who claimed he was sexually abused by an LDS Sunday school teacher.

Kosnoff never got the information because the church agreed to pay his client $3 million, the largest publicly known sex abuse settlement in the country at the time.

"It's the secret of secrets," Kosnoff said. "They don't share it even with their own members."

The latest legal showdown over the net worth of the LDS church stems from a 2006 lawsuit that accuses Kenneth I. Johnson Jr. of molesting a Beaverton youth as frequently as two times a week from 1987 to 1989.

Johnson was the boy's home teacher, a church-sanctioned lay official authorized to provide educational and religious guidance, according to the suit.

Johnson denied molesting the boy in court papers. He did not return calls seeking comment.

The suit says the church is responsible for Johnson's conduct because he used his position as an LDS home teacher to gain access to the boy.

English said Johnson was acting as a family friend, not a church official. LDS church officials did not know about the alleged abuse while it was going on. They excommunicated Johnson when they found out a decade later. Even if the jury finds the church responsible for Johnson's conduct, English said, forcing it to turn over detailed financial documents goes too far.

"The church feels very strongly that these are part of their religious belief system and are confidential," he said. "When you're seeking punitive damages against Johnson, the church's net worth ought to be irrelevant."

Clark said Oregon's punitive damage law requires defendants -- religious and secular -- to turn over financial information. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that laws that treat religious and nonreligious groups the same do not violate the First Amendment.

"We're arguing that the same rules that apply to everybody else in society apply to the LDS church," Clark said.

The LDS church sought emergency relief from a trial court order to turn over the financial information, but the Oregon Supreme Court late Monday rejected the appeal.

The pre-trial decision was reached on narrow pre-trial grounds and doesn't mean the court would not ultimately agree with the church's position that the Constitution protects its right to keep financial information private.

******My Thoughts********

Why are they struggling so hard to hide their financial information from their members? Don't they want the members to know how rich and well-off they are? Or is it because it will be next to impossible to explain how the church acquired all of its wealth WITHOUT USING TITHING FUNDS? As if...

People, please. Do yourselves a favor and look into a religion before buying into it with your whole life. It's ridiculous to think that you would buy a car without a test drive, or a house you have never seen the inside of. Why is it so difficult to ask for full disclosure of the facts, even the ones that are not useful to promoting faith? That is precisely why Mormons need to cut and run from this cult, they aren't willing to be honest in their dealings with their fellow man, so how dare they expect the same from the average member at temple recommend interviews?

If you were to discover that the church is a fraud, would you be more upset at the person who provided the information, or the church for hiding it from you in the first place? Who is REALLY to blame for "loss of the spirit"? I say the church is responsible for building up such an unfounded belief system in the first place. Belief in the face of evidence to the contrary is not the same thing as faith, people. It's called delusion. People get help for overcoming delusions. They are better off without them.

An Excellent Analogy

I discovered that our family doctor doesn’t have a license and never attended an accredited medical school.

For generations, my family has been attending the same clinic and seeing the same doctor. He is usually a really nice guy. In his office, he has his medical school certificate hanging on his wall. It says he is a doctor.

Over the last few years, I have had my doubts though. Most of his medical advice doesn’t work and seems very non-medical in nature. So, I decided to check out his background. With just a little research, I determined that he never attended medical school at all. In fact, he never graduated from college. The state board has never issued him a license.


When I found this out, I called him. He had his staff escort me from his clinic. I called all my family and told them what I had found. When I did, my parents hung up the phone and refused to discuss it. Later, my mother told me I was lying and they needed to rely on the doctor’s advice because he has been treating my father’s heart condition for years. My siblings did the same. My sister’s son is interning with the doctor and the doctor has assured him that he is accredited.


When I offered to fax them the information and records I had discovered, they all refused. One sibling asked me how I even knew the educational records I examined hadn’t been altered by the good doctor’s known adversaries.


So I stopped going to the doctor, but my parents, siblings, aunts and uncles all continue to go and won’t hear any criticism of their doctor or his background. So when we get together, discussion of the doctor is taboo, but I role my eyes every time I have to listen to stories about their frequent trips to the doctor and his sage advice and I see how ill they all appear.

******Question********

Would YOU want to know if your doctor isn’t who he claims to be?

It certainly doesn't hurt to be Skeptical