If you want to know about Mormons, ask the Mormons...

So, I took up the challenge and went to the church's official website, www.mormon.org

I asked a very easy question, one that Joseph Smith answered 167 years ago, and is contained in the Book of Mormon.

I asked: Where is Zarahemla?

This is the result: link

Then I asked: Where is the stone box that held the gold plates?

This is the result: link

Then I asked: What is a seer stone?

This is the result: link

Then I asked: How many wives did Joseph have?

This is the result: link

Then I asked: Who ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

This is the result: link

Finally reaching the end of my patience.... I asked: Who was Oliver Granger?

This is the result: link



Excuse me, WHERE should we go if we want to know about Mormons? Their own website won't mention the very topics that they claim the 'critics' of the church (read: free thinkers and intellectuals) use against them, so where are we supposed to hear the truth, if the Mormons won't explain it, who will?

[FYI: Here are the answers to the above questions: (and I had to get them from 'other' websites since the Mormons won't even acknowledge the questions, yea, even Wikipedia and Answers.com, those two abominable Anti-Mormon websites that thousands get their info from every day.)]

Where is Zarahemla? Answer from Wikipedia

According to the Book of Mormon, the Land of Zarahemla was the Nephite capital for many years, and it was discovered by Mosiah sometime between 323 and 130 B.C.

During the crucifixion of Christ, or shortly after, the Book of Mormon records that all the cities in the region of Zarahemla caught fire, being destroyed along with their inhabitants. However, it was later rebuilt, and once again became a great city.

The city is said to have existed for about 500 years, and its final end is uncertain. It may have later been used by the Lamanites (who have been speculatively identified by some Mormon scholars as the Mayans, Aztecs, and/or some other Native American tribes or civilizations).

Failure to ascertain the exact position of a city this ostensibly large, leads many non-Mormon critics to dismiss its historicity. But today in Mormon culture the most popular traditional location of the land of Zarahemla is the Mexican state of Chiapas. The LDS tourism service Israel Revealed provides "Book of Mormon Lands" tours that include various spots in Chiapas.

Where is the stone box that held the gold plates? Answer from Answer.com

The hill Cumorah in Upstate New York is where Smith said he discovered the Golden Plates which contained the writings of the Book of Mormon. Smith wrote:

"On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates of the Book of Mormon, deposited in a stone box."

The hill (which was then unnamed) stood only a few miles from Joseph Smith's home and sat on a farm that was owned by a local farmer, Alonzo Sanders. This farm is four miles south of Palmyra, and was on the main road toward Canandaigua from Palmyra to Manchester and is not far from Carangrie Creek and the Clyde River.

There is some disagreement within the Mormonism movement about whether the hill in New York state is the same as the place mentioned in the Book of Mormon, or if the hill was given the same name in order to honor it as the hiding place of the plates when Smith found them. Faithful Latter Day Saints believe that Smith was instructed by the angel to return the plates to the hill Cumorah.

In recent years some have opposed this view because no archaeological evidence associated with the key events at Cumorah has been found in or near the hill called Cumorah in New York state. There is no archaeological record of battles of the size mentioned in the Book of Mormon at this hill in New York state.


What is a seer stone? Answer from Wikipedia

In the early Latter Day Saint movement, seer stones were used as method of divination and played a significant role in its history and theology. Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, owned several seer stones from his earlier career as a "money digger." Other early Mormons such as Hiram Page, David Whitmer and Jacob Whitmer also owned seer stones. Seer stones are mentioned in the Book of Mormon and in other Latter Day Saint scriptures. James Strang, who claimed to be Joseph Smith's designated successor, also unearthed what he said were ancient metal plates and translated them using seer stones.

Some early nineteenth-century Americans used seer stones in attempt to gain a revelation from God or to find buried treasure. Beginning in the early 1820s, Joseph Smith was paid to act as a "seer" in (mostly unsuccessful) attempts to locate lost items and find precious metals hidden in the earth. Smith's procedure was to place the stone in a white stovepipe hat, put his face over the hat to block the light, and then "see" the necessary information in the stone's reflections. His favored stone, chocolate-colored and about the size of an egg, was found in a deep well he helped dig for one of his neighbors. In the words of Richard Bushman, there is ample evidence that Smith never "repudiated the stones or denied their power to find treasure. Remnants of the magical culture stayed with him to the end."

[See my personal seer stone collection here.]


How many wives did Joseph have? Answer from wivesofjosephsmith.org

Emma Hale
Fanny Alger
Lucinda Morgan Harris
Louisa Beaman
Zina Huntington Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell
Agnes Coolbrith
Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland
Delcena Johnson
Eliza R. Snow
Sarah Ann Whitney
Martha McBride Knight
Ruth Vose Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth
Emily Dow Partridge
Eliza Maria Partridge
Almera Johnson
Lucy Walker
Sarah Lawrence
Maria Lawrence
Helen Mar Kimball
Hanna Ells
Elvira Cowles Holmes
Rhoda Richards
Desdemona Fullmer
Olive Frost
Melissa Lott
Nancy Winchester
Fanny Young

[On a side note: How many wives are required to live the law of polygamy? 10? 20? 33 like Joseph Smith acquired? over 50 like Brigham Young acquired? Seems to me that all you would have to do is have TWO wives to be considered a polygamist.....why all the extra estrogen?]

Who ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Answer from Wikipedia

On September 1 in Salt Lake City, Brigham Young (who held the title of Superintendent of Indian Affairs for the Territory of Utah) met with Indian chiefs from the Southern Territory, which included the area around Mountain Meadows. During a one-hour meeting, Young complained that the Americans had come to kill both Mormons and Indians. He told the chiefs that if they fought the Americans, he would give them all the cattle on the Southern California Trail.

As the party approached Mountain Meadows, several meetings were held in Cedar City and nearby Parowan by local LDS ("Latter-Day Saints") leaders pondering how to implement Young's declaration of martial law. They decided to "eliminate" the Fancher wagon train, but hesitated and sent a rider to Salt Lake City (a six-day round trip on horseback) for Brigham Young's advice. Meanwhile, organization among the local Mormon leadership reportedly broke down. The rider did return with a letter from Young ordering that the immigrants not be harmed, but did not arrive in time to prevent the attack and moreover, after the massacre Mormon leaders resolved to exterminate any adult witnesses. Historians continue to debate the letter's contents.

The causes and circumstances of the Mountain Meadows Massacre remain contested and highly controversial. Although there is no evidence that Brigham Young ordered or condoned the massacre, the roles of Cedar City church officials in ordering the murders and Young's concealing of evidence in their aftermath are still questioned. Moreover, while by all accounts native American Paiutes were present, historical reports of their numbers and the details of their participation are contradictory. Paiute leaders stated in 2001 that the tribe's oral history denies any involvement in the massacre itself, but does admit to many watching from a distance and pillaging the Fanchers' property after the massacre. Young's use of often inflammatory and violent language in response to perceived Federal colonialism has also been cited as adding to the tense atmosphere that helped precipitate the attack.



And my personal favorite.....Who was Oliver Granger?

In the Doctrine and Covenants, section 117:12 we are told:

"And again, I say unto you, I remember my servant Oliver Granger; behold, verily I say unto him that his name shall be had in sacred remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord."

[If you were to go to a local ward, and ask 100 members of the church who Oliver Granger is, it is highly unlikely that ANYONE would be able to tell you. So much for 'sacred remembrance from generation to generation, FOREVER AND EVER.]

Here's an apologist argument, and a rebuttal from Richard Packham.



So, my point here is to show that you can't depend on getting straightforward answers from the Mormons themselves, you have to dig around for clear, concise information from both pro and anti sites in order to make that judgment FOR YOURSELVES!!! Just because an apologist for the church insists that it (whatever the accusation may be) is a tired old worn out claim that has been answered time and time again, that doesn't mean you have to agree automatically. What might be 'tired, old, and worn out" might be news to those who had never heard of such things as the Kinderhook Plates, or Mark Hofmann, or Joseph's secret polygamy practices. Maybe the average LDS member residing outside the Mormon strongholds, [ like maybe Iowa or somewhere], wouldn't know the first thing about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, or the Kirtland Bank failure. (that one will be coming in tomorrow's post)